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cervical discogram procedure

Therefore, it is important to continue […] The actual procedure only takes about thirty minutes, but patients will need to plan for a longer visit to accommodate any … Home - Precision Spine & Pain Management Discogram Discography Back Pain Diagnosis in Los Angeles They then evaluated results of 14 of the 16 patients who underwent cervical spine fusion at those levels in accordance with positive results on discogram. Discography Disc Stimulation Dallas, Addison Texas procedure) 0098T cervical (List separately in addition to code for primary procedure) 28 ADR Removal 22864 Removal of total disc arthroplasty (artificial disc), anterior approach, single interspace; cervical 22865 lumbar 0164T Removal of total disc arthroplasty, (artificial disc), anterior approach, each additional interspace, lumbar (List It must be noted that this is a Contrast for a diskogram does not meet any of those - it is injected intradiscally. These have all been updated for the most recent 2017 changes. These vertebrae are separated from one another by intervertebral discs. Discography, as part of an injection procedure for chemonucleolysis, may be medically necessary as determined by eviCore ® medical review (CPT code 62292). This procedure is purely diagnostic in that it will only help your physician to determine if one of the discs in your spine is responsible for your typical pain symptoms. The reproduction of pain during a discogram can help the doctor determine if injury to a particular disc is the source of a person's pain. 72295-26. See reviews, times, & insurances accepted. A discogram might help your doctor determine if an abnormal disk in your spine is causing your back pain. A discogram, also spelled diskogram, is a test used to evaluate back pain. And if it may or may not be beneficial to perform a lumbar fusion on a patient. The beginning of the nerve (nerve root) may be irritated by a bulging intervertebral disc, disc contents ("ruptured disc") or bone spur, directly touching the spinal nerve.An epidural steroid injection involves … Discogram is a radiological procedure used in the diagnosis of back pain related to the intervertebral discs. Located in between the bones of the spine, these spinal discs are round, with a hard outer layer and a softer inner core. A discogram is an X-ray procedure that deliberately provokes the patient’s pain symptoms in order to pinpoint its source in the intervertebral disks. Doctors observe the dye pattern to see if there is any structural abnormality in the disc. Preparation To begin, you lie down and you are given medicine to help you relax. Spinal disks are spongelike cushions between the bones (vertebrae) of the spine. A standard "time-out" is called. Lumbar Facet Blocks. The cervical fusion is described in detail below. Visit our website to book an appointment online: Wisconsin Spine and Pain Spinal disks are spongelike cushions between the bones (vertebrae) of the spine. 135 S Prospect St, Ypsilanti, MI 48198. A discogram is a diagnostic procedure which gives very important information to the doctor treating you. The Procedure Guide was launched to provide a modern, practical learning resource for proceduralists. It is fairly common to perform in the lower lumbar region for various purposes. For cervical level: The patient is placed in supine position, with a cushion under the lower neck and the upper thoracic spine to hyperextend the neck. A lumbar discogram is an outpatient, invasive procedure used to evaluate the condition of the disks in the lumbar portion of the spine and determine if these disks are the cause of back pain. Cervical Discogram: If pain is located at or radiating from the neck, including the shoulders or arms, the discs along the cervical spine may be examined. It is usually reserved for persons with persistent, severe low back pain (LBP) who have abnormal spaces between vertebrae on magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), where other diagnostic tests have … Children / Adolescents When identified early, there are several conservative treatments that can be utilized to help prevent progression of a curve, or in some cases, even help correct it! A special dye is injected into the injured disc or series of discs. This test is done by injecting a dye into the center of the disc while using a type of x-ray called fluoroscopy. Intervertebral discs are sponge-like cushions between the vertebrae, or bones, of the spine. By Chris Faubel, M.D. A discogram is a diagnostic procedure used to precisely locate which spinal discs are injured and causing back pain. A cervical discogram is a procedure in which contrast dye is injected into a cervical disc for clearer radiological visualization. Below you’ll find some details about navigating content. The goal is to reproduce the patient’s back and leg pain while increasing the disc pressure. Discography is a relatively brief 30-45 minute outpatient, X-Ray guided So 90% fusion is a good rate, but the better rate would be 100% relief of symptoms in 90% of cases. We are receiving payment for the three levels of 62290 and only one level of 72295. ... discogram, myelogram, or CT scan to identify a herniated disc or other conditions that compress the nerve roots. Medial Branch Block. Lumbar Discogram. By injecting dye into the soft center of the disc and viewing the result on a CT scan or x-ray, your doctor can … A Discogram, or diskogram, is a test used to evaluate back pain. Cervical discograms for disks in the neck are usually done with the patient lying on the back. Degenerative disc disease (spondylosis) can occur in any area of the spine (cervical, thoracic, lumbar), but is most common in the low back. Discograms are provocative tests, meaning that they attempt to reproduce a pain rather than remove a pain. The procedure is started with sterile preparation of the skin (Iodine). A Discogram, or diskogram, is a test used to evaluate back pain. Research confirms spine fusions don't reliably provide relief without … During the procedure, your doctor will place a needle in the disk and under gentle pressure, inject x-ray contrast into the disc. 734-210-1558. The discogram is performed under sterile conditions and intravenous antibiotics are given before the procedure. The lumbar discogram, if performed properly, is designed to induce pain in a sensitive disc. The discogram is performed under sterile conditions and intravenous antibiotics are given before the procedure. This procedure is most frequently used to determine if degenerative disc disease is the cause of a patient’s pain (discogenic low back pain). You will be kept for observation for 30 to 60 minutes and can then go home. Lumbar Discogram. Lumbar discogram to eliminate disc source of pain; Radio frequency Ablation/pain flare up; is ADR surgery in C spine can help from to SLOW DOWN OR prevent facet arthritis; is ADR surgery in cervical spine can help from to prevent facet arthritis; what is … The possibility that discography may cause persistent back pain is another question that has been raised. The discogram is performed under sterile conditions and intravenous antibiotics are given before the procedure. Through this guide needle a much smaller disc needle is advanced towards and eventually into the center of the disc. This process should not be painful, but sometimes may be. The discogram procedure usually takes less than an hour to perform. You’ll have soreness from the needle punctures that lasts several days. The procedure involves an injection into disk space to evaluate the anatomy of the disk along with how the patient feels when the fluid is … The dye makes the disc visible on a fluoroscope monitor and x-ray film. Cushioning tissue called vertebral discs located between the vertebrae act as shock absorbers, allowing easy movement of the neck. This noninvasive test will evaluate whether you have a Parkinsonian syndrome. If you are pregnant or may … Many people have discs that look abnormal on an MRI, but may not be related to their pain. The discogram can identify the pain generator or generators. The walls of the discs may develop tears (fissures) or the disc walls may weaken and bulge (herniation), both conditions may be a result of age or injury. A spinal fusion procedure that is designed to obliterate an internally disrupted, painful disc (pain generator) would not be the procedure of choice if pressurization of the disc didn’t reproduce the patient’s clinical discomfort. In addition, as with most procedures, there is an inverse relationship between complication rate and physician experience. A discogram, or discography, is an interventional diagnostic imaging test that helps determine whether a specific intervertebral disc may be the source of back pain. What exactly is the procedure and why is it used? This may cause pain and if the pain is the same as your baseline pain (called “concordant pain”), this will determine if the disc is responsible for your pain. A discogram is a test to evaluate back pain and determine if an abnormal disc in your spine is the cause of your pain. Lumbar discography (also known as lumbar provocative discography and provocative lumbar discography) is a test that is used to ascertain if a disc is painful on injection. This procedure attempts to reproduce a patient's back or neck pain profile. The injection pressurizes the disc and, if the disc is abnormal, will result in a recreation of the pain. an injection technique used to evaluate patients with back pain who have not responded to extensive conservative (nonsurgical) care regimens. Medical services, which are also referred to as "physical restoration," are available to eligible Vocational Rehabilitation (VR) customers through the Texas Workforce Commission's (TWC) Vocational Rehabilitation Services (VR) when these services are expected to decrease, help manage, or stabilize physical barriers so that eligible customers can secure, … This is incorrect. The procedure is designed to create a pain “road map,” making the discogram an excellent fusion surgery planning tool. Lumbar discogram procedures have been used for decades in the world of spine surgery and pain management. This is where the discogram is useful. This swelling in the facet joint can increase to the point where nerves in the spine come under pressure causing pain and discomfort. Cervical discogram. Overview This procedure, also called a “discogram,” helps your doctor find painful spinal discs. Patient Safety Tips Prior to the Procedure in Radiology Please let us know if you have any allergies or adverse reactions to medications. Cervical Myelopathy is a common form of neurologic impairment caused by compression of the cervical spinal cord most commonly due to degenerative cervical spondylosis. Additional morphologic information with post-discography computed tomography and … A needle is inserted into the suspected disc under fluoroscopic guidance. This device and procedure is designed to provide spinal fixation in lumbar fusion procedures, including the treatment of degenerative disc disease, spinal tumors, spinal stenosis, and trauma. After preparation of the skin and local anesthesia of the skin, a 22.5-gauge needle is inserted anterolateraly. Our team of subspecialized doctors, nurses and technologists who perform this scan is led by, Alessandro D'Angnolo, MD, and Louise E.J. Risk factors for post-discogram discitis in the cervical region include male gender, presence of a beard, and thick neck . The guidelines in CPT for contrast usage (beginning of Radiology section) are quite clear that to be considered a "with contrast" CT or MRI, the contrast must be injected IV, intrathecally or intra-articularly. Lumbar or thoracic discograms for disks in the back are done with the patient lying on the stomach. A discogram is an X-ray procedure used to determine if a particular disc is the source of pain. An iatrogenic cervical kyphosis can also occur after a failed attempt at a cervical spine fusion. 62290-51. Does all Spine Pain Require a Discogram? Due to the pain and potential complications involved in the procedure, some patients are hesitant to undergo a discogram. So are discograms required to diagnose all back pain? In short, no. There are numerous diagnostic tools and procedures a physician can use to determine the cause of your spine pain. Discography is usually performed in the lumbar spine but can be done also in the cervical and thoracic spine. Lumbar discogram to eliminate disc source of pain; Radio frequency Ablation/pain flare up; is ADR surgery in C spine can help from to SLOW DOWN OR prevent facet arthritis; is ADR surgery in cervical spine can help from to prevent facet arthritis; what is call cervical stenosis (10-11 mm u can call this ... Discography (Discogram) A Discogram is done to confirm that the disc in the lumbar or cervical spine is the source of pain. The discogram procedure usually takes 30 to 45 minutes. 517-301-9188. Cervical discograms for disks in the neck are usually done with the patient lying on the back. A discogram, also spelled diskogram, is a test used to evaluate back pain. Lumbar or thoracic discograms for discs in the back are done with the patient lying on the stomach. Although this procedure was initially intended to identify a … Cervical Facet Blocks. The discogram is a procedure involving the intervertebral disc of the spine. At offices in Jackson and Cordova, Tennessee, Jeffrey Hall, MD, and the staff of specialists diagnose the root cause of each person’s pain and provide personalized, whole-person care using today’s most advanced interventional and pain medicine treatments. Lumbar or thoracic discograms for disks in the back are done with the patient lying on the stomach. Lumbar provocative discography (also referred to as "discography" or discogram) is an invasive diagnostic procedure for evaluation for intervertebral disc pathology. ... Discography (or discogram) is a diagnostic tool that can help physicians identify if a particular disc or discs is the origin... Read More. Lumbar discography (discogram / diskogram) is a diagnostic procedure performed by fellowship-trained interventional pain physicians. The use of the lumbar discogram gives specialists at The Spine & Pain Center the ability to determine if a damaged disc in the spine is the source of lower back and leg pain. The lumbar region is marked with a skin marker. Please have this blood work performed and the results faxed to 717-691-3858 at least one week prior to your scheduled procedure. Typically, if a disk is causing your back pain, you will feel pain during the injection that's similar to the back pain you have daily. If a disk is normal, there's little pain during the injection. During the discogram, you'll be asked to describe and rate your pain. All of your questions and concerns should be addressed and answered. This procedure is performed to prevent a nerve from transmitting pain signals from an injury. Lumbar Epidural Steroid Injection Series. The average symptomatic period prior to discography was 12 months, and cervical disk pain was localized in … The cervical spine is located in the neck region and consists of seven bones arranged one on top of the other. The discs will be individually studied by injecting contrast (x-ray dye), and putting the discs under pressure. It is similar to a lumbar and cervical discogram in that it is used to identify specific discs that are pinching on nerves causing pain in the back or in the area in which peripheral nerve serves. What is Discogram Procedure. Get answers and details around popular health questions on symptoms, causes and treatment options plus related articles, videos and more. About Us. An epidural steroid injection is a common procedure to treat spinal nerve irritation that is most often caused by tissues next to the nerve pressing against it. ... Only patients will be allowed to be in the waiting, examine, and procedure rooms. Spinal disks are spongelike cushions between the bones (vertebrae) of the spine. It is usually reserved for persons with persistent, severe low back pain (LBP) who have abnormal spaces between vertebrae on magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), where other diagnostic tests have … view all . Trusted Pain Management serving Waukesha, Green Bay, Sheboygan, West Bent, and Greenfield, WI. He has assisted patients from Wayzata, Woodland, Minnetonka, St. Louis Park, Hopkins, Plymouth, Shorewood, Deephaven, Greenwood and everywhere in between. Contrast dye is injected into the discs between vertebrae in order to show detail of any damage. The discs in your spine are a soft cushion that sits between each vertebra, the bones that make up the spinal column. -- Bertolotti's syndrome is an atypical cause of axial low back pain or buttock pain caused by a transitional lumbar vertebrae with a large transverse process that either fuses with the sacrum (sacral ala) or ilium, or forms a pseudoarticulation at that location. 62290. Disclaimer: The information here is NOT meant to replace the sound advice of a billing and coding expert.. Below is a list of the most common CPT codes (procedure codes) used in a PM&R and interventional pain management clinic. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY. This type of structural damage is a primary cause of pain within a damaged disc. A Discogram is a test used to determine which disc or discs, if any, are related to your pain. If there's a problem with your disc—like it's herniated—the dye will leak out of the disc. Please be prepared to spend approximately three to four hours at the facility. Native vertebral osteomyelitis (NVO) in adults is often the result of hematogenous seeding of the adjacent disc space from a distant focus, as the disc is avascular [1, 2].The diagnosis of NVO can often be delayed several months and may initially be misdiagnosed and mismanaged as a degenerative process [3, 4].NVO is typically diagnosed in the setting of … A Discogram procedure (also known as provocative discography) is a spinal injection procedure that is rarely performed in modern times following the widespread use of MRI. This is the reason I have been a patient of their's for over 2 yrs & I will NEVER change doctors by choice. 72295-26. If you do not experience pain (not as awful as it might sound) at the time of the discogram, it indicates that the pain symptoms you are experiencing are not confined to the intervertebral discs themselves but may be related to other degenerative changes of the spine. Call (888) 585-2884 to schedule an appointment with our spine specialists today! During a discogram, dye is injected into the soft center of one or more disks. Call (888) 585-2884 to schedule an appointment with our spine specialists today! If this blood work is not completed, the physician will be unable to perform your cervical discogram. Lumbar Sympathetic Block. 62290-51. This procedure is purely diagnostic in that it will only help your physician to determine if one of the discs in your spine is responsible for your typical pain symptoms. Discography is an image-guided spine procedure that provides diagnostic information about the intervertebral disc. After the procedure a CT Scan of the lumbar spine is performed. It is important to note that a discogram is more of a diagnostic tool, not a treatment option. Discs act as a sort of shock absorber for the spine and help provide flexibility. Participating Telehealth provider - Schedule a virtual visit today! This procedure is performed to evaluate symptoms including leg pain or swelling, excessive varicose veins, shortness of breath, or suspected blood clots in your legs and/or lungs. These procedures are all done under x-ray guidance and sedation in the procedure suite or in a hospital outpatient setting. Extracorporeal Pulse Activation Technology (EPAT®) is the most advanced… Discogram. Discogram Procedure In Wayzata, MN. Discograms can be performed in the lumbar spine (low back) and cervical spine (neck). Discogram is a radiological procedure used in the diagnosis of back pain related to the intervertebral discs. The discogram procedure is a diagnostic test that can help identify the cause of back pain. After preparation of the skin and local anesthesia of the skin, a 22.5-gauge needle is inserted anterolateraly. A small amount of radiocontrast is placed in the disc and outlines the shape or disc morphology. Discogram. Cervical Radiculopathy. CHAPTER 31 Provocative Discogram Vikram B. Patel and Sudhir Diwan INTRODUCTION Discography has been practiced by interventional pain physicians for the last few decades in an attempt to identify the pain generator in the lumbar or the cervical spine (and less commonly the thoracic spine). A discogram is a diagnostic test performed to view and assess a disc to determine if it is a source of pain. Procedure The discogram procedure will be done as an outpatient procedure, meaning the patient will be able to return home the same day. Thomson, MBChB, co-chiefs of Nuclear Medicine. A discogram, also known as disc stimulation, is a brief outpatient diagnostic procedure that is performed in order to identify painful discs in the spine. The discogram procedure is a diagnostic test that can help identify the cause of back pain. The doctors at the Florida Pain Center are Board Certified in Anesthesiology & Pain Management, and have the extensive expertise and specialized equipment necessary to successfully perform minimally invasive and non-surgical spinal treatments. What is a Cervical Discogram? A discogram is usually a pre-surgical test. Upon injection, recurrence of the patient’s radiculopathy symptoms may signify the presence of a disc bulge or herniation. A Discogram refers to a procedure commonly used in the lumbar spine but also in the cervical spine (neck). Re: Cervical Discogram & Cervical Fusion Keep in mind Successful Fusion doesn't mean relief of symptoms it only means the bones fuse. Lumbar Discogram The intervertebral discs help the spine support the weight of your body while still allowing movement between your vertebrae. Lumbar Discogram. A special dye is injected into the suspected discs and then an x-ray is used to to examine the discs for injuries or issues, made visible by the dye. A discogram is an enhanced X-ray examination of the intervertebral discs. As the imbalance continues, a cervical kyphosis will result. Once the disc has been removed between the vertebrae, a cervical fusion is performed. Facet Hypertrophy is a condition in which there is a swelling, or enlargement, of the facet joint. Although this procedure was initially intended to identify a … OVERVIEW: Discography is a procedure in which contrast is injected, under fluoroscopy, into the nucleus of a disc thought to be the cause of a patient's low back pain. This stock medical illustration depicts a lumbar spine discogram procedure on L3-4, L4-5, L5-S1 If your physician is suspecting a disc to be the pain generating area in your back, a Discogram may identify this more clearly. Discogram / Discography Overview. After Your Procedure You may have an increase in back pain for a day or two after the exam. A discogram is a diagnostic procedure done to determine if the disk degeneration or herniation seen on a ct or mri is significant enough to require surgery. After local anesthesia, fluoroscopic (x-ray) guidance will be used to place needles into the lumbar spine discs. The pain is usually a little back in the lumbar region right side. You will have a harmless dye injected into one of your discs. The purpose of a lumbar discogram is to give information about the health of the lumbar disc. Background The past two decades have witnessed a surge in the use of cervical spine joint procedures including joint injections, nerve blocks and radiofrequency ablation to treat chronic neck pain, yet many aspects of the procedures remain controversial. A discogram is a test to evaluate back pain and determine if an abnormal disc in your spine is the cause of your pain. Currently I am on 4 tablets 30 mg oxycodone a day. For cervical level: The patient is placed in supine position, with a cushion under the lower neck and the upper thoracic spine to hyperextend the neck. Discography is used to confirm or refute the presence of a discogenic pain source. A discogram might help your doctor determine if an abnormal disk in your spine is causing your back pain. Considerable pain in the area where discogram was done. Methods In August 2020, the American Society of Regional Anesthesia and Pain Medicine and the American … This form of treatment is most […] If a suspect disk is found, a CT scan is often performed to determine the condition of the disk. A discogram might help your doctor determine if an abnormal disk in your spine is causing your back pain. Cervical discogram complements MR in providing valuable pre-operative information regarding the discogenic origin of pain Presentation material is for education purposes only. The condition most commonly presents in older patients with symmetric numbness and tingling in the extremities, hand clumsiness, and gait imbalance. Lumbar Epidural Steroid Injection View … It can show the source of pain in your back. Spectrum Pain Clinics understands that achieving true wellness isn’t possible when people struggle with pain. CONTACT US. A provocative discogram is a diagnostic procedure to help identify which disc (s), if any, are causing pain (discogenic pain). A lumbar discogram is a diagnostic procedure used to determine if pain is coming from a specific disc(s) in your spine. 72295-26. First and foremost, it needs to be understood right away that a discogram is not a therapeutic procedure. Your doctor has recommended a DaTscan for you. The procedure is designed to create a pain “road map,” making the discogram an excellent fusion surgery-planning tool. In case of cervical or neck discography, patients lie down on their back. The procedure is started with sterile preparation of the skin (Iodine). A discogram is a diagnostic procedure done to determine if the disk degeneration or herniation seen on a ct or mri is significant enough to require surgery. New patient registration. At the Cedars-Sinai S. Mark Taper Foundation Imaging Center, we have a specialized team of physicians, nurses, and technologists who are experts in ultrasound radiology. What is Discogram Procedure. Procedure CPT Code Bundled Price; Lumbar facet block (3 level) 64493: $1,000: Lumbar facet rhizotomy (3 level) 64635: $1,200: Cervical facet block (3 level) 64490: $1,200: Cervical facet rhizotomy (3 level) 64633: $1,400: Spinal cord stimulator trial, (incl.hardware) 63650: $4,500: Diagnostic lumbar discogram (3-level) 62290: $2,000 Thoracic Discogram: When the pain is located in the mid-to-upper back or radiates to the ribs or abdomen, the discs along the thoracic spine may be evaluated. Lumbar Epidural Steroid Injection View … Electrodiagnostic (EMG/NCS) codes are also included. Choose your preferred location. To see how it works, let’s watch a discography done in the thoracic spine. I was told that we should append modifier -59 to … A discogram can show if a disc has begun to rupture and if it has tears in the tough outer ring (the annulus). Once a nerve is treated using Radiofrequency Ablation, it is unable to transmit signals, but the nerve can heal within 1-2 years of treatment. Discogram or discography: This is a procedure that confirms or denies the disc(s) as the source of your pain. It is usually ordered by spine surgeons in order to determine if a patient’s severe axial low back pain is caused by their lumbar disc disease ( internal disc derangement) seen on MRI. This minimally invasive diagnostic procedure called a discogram or discography is performed to determine if one or more discs in the spinal column is the cause of a patient’s back pain. Unlike a diagnostic nerve block, a cervical discogram is only used for diagnostic purposes and has no pain relief benefits. It helps in locating the disc … Problems can arise if the fusion is too short, meaning there are not vertebrae included in the fusion. Contrast dye is injected into the center of the disc(s). Discogram is an invasive diagnostic test by which x-rays are used to examine the inter vertebral discs of the patient's spine. In this procedure, a special dye is injected into the injured area that can be a disc or a series of discs. The dye used in the discogram procedure is injected into the disc/ discs soft center. It is useful for the evaluation of patients who are experiencing cervical discogenic pain or have multiple herniations in which surgery is a strong possibility. ” making the discogram, ” making the discogram procedure - Spine-health < /a lumbar. And procedures a physician can use to determine if an abnormal disk your. 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The pelvis over 2 yrs & I will NEVER change doctors by choice procedure - Spine-health < >!: //www.urmc.rochester.edu/imaging/specialties/procedures/discogram.aspx '' cervical discogram procedure Services & procedures < /a > cervical discogram complements MR in providing valuable pre-operative regarding. An inverse relationship between complication rate and physician experience to relate any and all horror stories you may have from! Eventually into the suspected disc under fluoroscopic guidance are a soft cushion that sits each... Medicine... < /a > this is the source of pain shock absorber the. Persistent back pain those - it is fairly common to perform a lumbar discogram //www.urmc.rochester.edu/imaging/specialties/procedures/discogram.aspx '' spine... Region include male gender, presence of a disc bulge or herniation a. Is painful procedure attempts to reproduce a patient fusion site with a double needle Technique or... //Www.Oklahomapaintreatmentcenters.Com/Discogram/ '' > pain cervical discogram procedure Injections < /a > discogram an injury minutes can... To 60 minutes and can then go home hours at the involved level of the spine will begin to bend... Watch a Discography done in the waiting, examine, and procedure are.... Meaning that they attempt cervical discogram procedure reproduce a patient of their 's for over 2 &. A surgical procedure is performed pain signals from an injury describe and rate your.! Is normal, there is nothing achieved for pain relief at all during procedure! Spine center < /a > discogram procedure usually takes less than an hour to.... Of 72295 procedures on patients from all over the top of the patient lying on the.. Right away that a discogram < /a > EXECUTIVE SUMMARY or new curves can....

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